1 00:00:05,010 --> 00:00:23,269 [Music] 2 00:00:27,830 --> 00:00:25,189 on our show today we have dr colin 3 00:00:30,790 --> 00:00:27,840 kelleher who is a molecular biologist uh 4 00:00:32,790 --> 00:00:30,800 the former deputy administrator of bass 5 00:00:35,910 --> 00:00:32,800 which was the uh program run by robert 6 00:00:37,670 --> 00:00:35,920 bigelow also in conjunction with awsapp 7 00:00:39,510 --> 00:00:37,680 lots of acronyms we're going to explain 8 00:00:42,389 --> 00:00:39,520 it all and break it all down 9 00:00:44,709 --> 00:00:42,399 so welcome to the show dr colin kelleher 10 00:00:47,510 --> 00:00:44,719 thank you good to be here glad to have 11 00:00:49,830 --> 00:00:47,520 you sir and of course my uh astute host 12 00:00:51,830 --> 00:00:49,840 uh co-host jason gilmet how are you my 13 00:00:54,069 --> 00:00:51,840 friend i am doing very good i'm so 14 00:00:55,910 --> 00:00:54,079 excited for this uh conversation i've 15 00:00:57,029 --> 00:00:55,920 been looking forward to it all week so 16 00:00:58,389 --> 00:00:57,039 bring it 17 00:00:59,990 --> 00:00:58,399 so we kind of just wanted to give a 18 00:01:01,349 --> 00:01:00,000 rough uh background in terms of the 19 00:01:03,270 --> 00:01:01,359 chronology i know there's a lot of 20 00:01:05,670 --> 00:01:03,280 misconceptions out there people have 21 00:01:07,670 --> 00:01:05,680 heard the term atip which predominantly 22 00:01:10,149 --> 00:01:07,680 comes from that 2017 release in the new 23 00:01:11,429 --> 00:01:10,159 york times the tic tac video the gimbal 24 00:01:13,190 --> 00:01:11,439 video but there's a lot of 25 00:01:15,350 --> 00:01:13,200 misconceptions around 26 00:01:18,230 --> 00:01:15,360 which program had the funding 27 00:01:21,109 --> 00:01:18,240 asap actually pre-dates atip and they 28 00:01:23,270 --> 00:01:21,119 were the bulk of the research and uh 29 00:01:25,190 --> 00:01:23,280 column you work for atip and again we 30 00:01:27,670 --> 00:01:25,200 had george knapp on last week his 31 00:01:30,149 --> 00:01:27,680 perspective was from nids which was in 32 00:01:32,870 --> 00:01:30,159 95 to 96 which was the national 33 00:01:35,030 --> 00:01:32,880 institute of discovery science um george 34 00:01:37,270 --> 00:01:35,040 was a consultant to robert bigelow for 35 00:01:39,910 --> 00:01:37,280 that so when robert bigelow got the 36 00:01:42,069 --> 00:01:39,920 contract to actually help study this 37 00:01:44,069 --> 00:01:42,079 phenomenon he pulled all the resources 38 00:01:46,550 --> 00:01:44,079 he had including yourself and dr jim 39 00:01:48,550 --> 00:01:46,560 zakatsky so give us a bit of a breakdown 40 00:01:50,149 --> 00:01:48,560 of how this all started and what it 41 00:01:52,710 --> 00:01:50,159 turned into 42 00:01:54,630 --> 00:01:52,720 well it really does go back i think 43 00:01:57,990 --> 00:01:54,640 george probably mentioned this all the 44 00:02:00,469 --> 00:01:58,000 way back to 1995 45 00:02:03,190 --> 00:02:00,479 when when robert bigelow 46 00:02:05,749 --> 00:02:03,200 decided to form this organization called 47 00:02:09,350 --> 00:02:05,759 national institute for discovery science 48 00:02:11,670 --> 00:02:09,360 and so um in 1996 49 00:02:14,229 --> 00:02:11,680 he began robert bigelow started hiring 50 00:02:17,190 --> 00:02:14,239 people he hired a physicist he hired a 51 00:02:19,030 --> 00:02:17,200 full-time veterinarian and he hired me 52 00:02:22,790 --> 00:02:19,040 my background's biology molecular 53 00:02:26,070 --> 00:02:22,800 biology biochemistry and the purpose for 54 00:02:28,949 --> 00:02:26,080 nids was to really start bringing 55 00:02:31,110 --> 00:02:28,959 mainstream science methodology to the 56 00:02:33,350 --> 00:02:31,120 study of anomalies and that would 57 00:02:34,790 --> 00:02:33,360 include everything from 58 00:02:36,470 --> 00:02:34,800 ufos 59 00:02:38,309 --> 00:02:36,480 all the way out through 60 00:02:40,309 --> 00:02:38,319 the um 61 00:02:42,550 --> 00:02:40,319 the so-called survival of human 62 00:02:45,030 --> 00:02:42,560 consciousness after death which is 63 00:02:47,509 --> 00:02:45,040 a very different topic but as time has 64 00:02:49,670 --> 00:02:47,519 gone on in the last 25 years 65 00:02:51,270 --> 00:02:49,680 it's become more and more obvious that 66 00:02:53,030 --> 00:02:51,280 there's considerable overlap between 67 00:02:56,790 --> 00:02:53,040 these two topics so 68 00:02:59,670 --> 00:02:56,800 in august of 1996 um 69 00:03:01,589 --> 00:02:59,680 just after i was hired robert bigelow 70 00:03:02,710 --> 00:03:01,599 and nid started hearing through the 71 00:03:03,830 --> 00:03:02,720 grapevine 72 00:03:05,509 --> 00:03:03,840 a lot of 73 00:03:09,750 --> 00:03:05,519 reports that were coming out of this 74 00:03:12,070 --> 00:03:09,760 weird ranch in northeastern utah 75 00:03:14,149 --> 00:03:12,080 long story short within a month robert 76 00:03:16,869 --> 00:03:14,159 bigelow had purchased it 77 00:03:20,630 --> 00:03:16,879 had moved a lot of equipment onto the 78 00:03:22,470 --> 00:03:20,640 property and by the end of august 1996 79 00:03:24,149 --> 00:03:22,480 things were in full swing 80 00:03:25,830 --> 00:03:24,159 i and uh 81 00:03:26,869 --> 00:03:25,840 the two other staff members i had 82 00:03:29,670 --> 00:03:26,879 mentioned 83 00:03:33,750 --> 00:03:29,680 um were deployed on the property full 84 00:03:37,589 --> 00:03:33,760 time beginning in september of 1996. 85 00:03:40,149 --> 00:03:37,599 i spent probably 300 plus days 86 00:03:42,789 --> 00:03:40,159 on skinwalker ranch it became later 87 00:03:44,470 --> 00:03:42,799 known as skinwalker ranch after george 88 00:03:46,789 --> 00:03:44,480 and i had published this book called 89 00:03:50,470 --> 00:03:46,799 hunt for the skinwalker 90 00:03:51,309 --> 00:03:50,480 which was 2005 but between 1996 91 00:03:53,030 --> 00:03:51,319 and 92 00:03:56,550 --> 00:03:53,040 2002 93 00:04:00,869 --> 00:03:56,560 um we had a const nids had a constant 94 00:04:01,830 --> 00:04:00,879 stream of technical people um support 95 00:04:04,949 --> 00:04:01,840 people 96 00:04:07,350 --> 00:04:04,959 and scientific talent as well as a lot 97 00:04:09,350 --> 00:04:07,360 of equipment deployed on skinwalker 98 00:04:10,390 --> 00:04:09,360 ranch and the bottom line was to try to 99 00:04:13,350 --> 00:04:10,400 capture 100 00:04:15,830 --> 00:04:13,360 evidence of anomalies because 101 00:04:18,710 --> 00:04:15,840 that the discovery part of national 102 00:04:20,949 --> 00:04:18,720 history for discovery science was 103 00:04:23,430 --> 00:04:20,959 based on the premise that studying 104 00:04:25,749 --> 00:04:23,440 anomalies is part of the scientific 105 00:04:28,469 --> 00:04:25,759 discovery process 106 00:04:29,590 --> 00:04:28,479 so the the way to short circuit 107 00:04:30,870 --> 00:04:29,600 um 108 00:04:31,909 --> 00:04:30,880 a lot of the 109 00:04:34,310 --> 00:04:31,919 um 110 00:04:36,870 --> 00:04:34,320 creativity in science is to put a lot of 111 00:04:38,070 --> 00:04:36,880 focus on anomalies and that way to 112 00:04:39,670 --> 00:04:38,080 initiate 113 00:04:42,469 --> 00:04:39,680 um this 114 00:04:43,749 --> 00:04:42,479 whole new areas of study so 115 00:04:45,590 --> 00:04:43,759 you know 116 00:04:47,590 --> 00:04:45,600 looking at anomalies is a very 117 00:04:50,469 --> 00:04:47,600 legitimate part of the scientific 118 00:04:51,670 --> 00:04:50,479 process or it certainly should be so 119 00:04:53,909 --> 00:04:51,680 um 120 00:04:56,550 --> 00:04:53,919 by 2002 121 00:04:59,270 --> 00:04:56,560 we had accumulated nids had accumulated 122 00:05:01,909 --> 00:04:59,280 a lot of data on skin walker ranch we 123 00:05:04,950 --> 00:05:01,919 had document documented probably a 124 00:05:06,870 --> 00:05:04,960 hundred separate anomalies we had small 125 00:05:08,629 --> 00:05:06,880 amounts of physical evidence but not a 126 00:05:11,350 --> 00:05:08,639 huge amount 127 00:05:13,990 --> 00:05:11,360 after that um 128 00:05:17,110 --> 00:05:14,000 probably by 2004 129 00:05:20,390 --> 00:05:17,120 i left to uh to take up a position at a 130 00:05:23,350 --> 00:05:20,400 biotechnology company in san francisco 131 00:05:26,070 --> 00:05:23,360 i was working on virology and 132 00:05:30,390 --> 00:05:26,080 biochemistry for about four years got a 133 00:05:33,110 --> 00:05:30,400 call from robert bigelow in 2008 saying 134 00:05:34,950 --> 00:05:33,120 there is a new program 135 00:05:39,029 --> 00:05:34,960 funded by the defense intelligence 136 00:05:41,590 --> 00:05:39,039 agency that's starting up to study ufos 137 00:05:42,629 --> 00:05:41,600 um about 22 million dollars over two 138 00:05:44,710 --> 00:05:42,639 years 139 00:05:46,950 --> 00:05:44,720 and uh he wanted me to come from san 140 00:05:48,950 --> 00:05:46,960 francisco back to las vegas 141 00:05:51,270 --> 00:05:48,960 and you know this was an offer i just 142 00:05:53,670 --> 00:05:51,280 couldn't refuse the idea of 143 00:05:55,510 --> 00:05:53,680 working behind the scenes 144 00:05:58,309 --> 00:05:55,520 at one of the premier intelligence 145 00:06:00,550 --> 00:05:58,319 agencies in the country so naturally i 146 00:06:02,390 --> 00:06:00,560 jumped on a plane and in november of 147 00:06:04,790 --> 00:06:02,400 2008 148 00:06:06,469 --> 00:06:04,800 i started work for 149 00:06:12,550 --> 00:06:06,479 bigelow 150 00:06:15,510 --> 00:06:12,560 and we the purpose of of this new 151 00:06:18,390 --> 00:06:15,520 organization was to execute on the 152 00:06:20,790 --> 00:06:18,400 defense intelligence agency contract 153 00:06:23,029 --> 00:06:20,800 which was the advanced aerospace weapons 154 00:06:25,350 --> 00:06:23,039 systems application program 155 00:06:29,029 --> 00:06:25,360 also known as asap so 156 00:06:31,670 --> 00:06:29,039 november of 2008 is really when 157 00:06:34,710 --> 00:06:31,680 um i was tasked with 158 00:06:37,189 --> 00:06:34,720 uh hiring a team 159 00:06:38,469 --> 00:06:37,199 of uh specialists to start working on 160 00:06:41,270 --> 00:06:38,479 this program 161 00:06:42,070 --> 00:06:41,280 um it had just been recently funded and 162 00:06:45,029 --> 00:06:42,080 um 163 00:06:46,629 --> 00:06:45,039 we were we were determined to get our 164 00:06:48,390 --> 00:06:46,639 boots on the ground as quickly as 165 00:06:51,510 --> 00:06:48,400 possible 166 00:06:52,469 --> 00:06:51,520 so i within the next four four to five 167 00:06:54,710 --> 00:06:52,479 months 168 00:06:57,189 --> 00:06:54,720 i conducted probably 169 00:06:59,189 --> 00:06:57,199 two to three hundred separate uh 170 00:07:02,070 --> 00:06:59,199 interviews of people we were trying to 171 00:07:03,589 --> 00:07:02,080 recruit people as fast as possible but 172 00:07:05,189 --> 00:07:03,599 obviously we weren't 173 00:07:07,270 --> 00:07:05,199 you know dragging people in off the 174 00:07:09,430 --> 00:07:07,280 street we were trying to get people 175 00:07:10,710 --> 00:07:09,440 number one who had a lot of uh 176 00:07:12,469 --> 00:07:10,720 experience 177 00:07:14,870 --> 00:07:12,479 uh scientifically who had a lot of 178 00:07:16,550 --> 00:07:14,880 experience in counter intelligence 179 00:07:18,390 --> 00:07:16,560 operations who had backgrounds in 180 00:07:20,790 --> 00:07:18,400 military intelligence 181 00:07:22,790 --> 00:07:20,800 who had phds in some case master's 182 00:07:25,589 --> 00:07:22,800 degrees in some case 183 00:07:27,270 --> 00:07:25,599 we also hired sort of 184 00:07:33,029 --> 00:07:27,280 specialists 185 00:07:35,189 --> 00:07:33,039 um and and also analysts as well as 186 00:07:38,790 --> 00:07:35,199 security officers so by 187 00:07:42,070 --> 00:07:38,800 probably um mid 2009 188 00:07:45,670 --> 00:07:42,080 i had hired approximately 50 full-time 189 00:07:49,830 --> 00:07:45,680 people who were you know up and running 190 00:07:51,909 --> 00:07:49,840 by mid mid 2009 we had a full a full 191 00:07:54,869 --> 00:07:51,919 staff including security officers 192 00:07:57,990 --> 00:07:54,879 including military intelligence people 193 00:08:00,469 --> 00:07:58,000 uh scientists engineers technicians 194 00:08:03,189 --> 00:08:00,479 translators 195 00:08:05,990 --> 00:08:03,199 you know it was a very very 196 00:08:07,430 --> 00:08:06,000 fast pace for normally for a government 197 00:08:09,270 --> 00:08:07,440 program 198 00:08:11,430 --> 00:08:09,280 it would probably take two years to put 199 00:08:14,070 --> 00:08:11,440 that kind of a team together but we did 200 00:08:16,550 --> 00:08:14,080 it in less than six months now on top of 201 00:08:19,510 --> 00:08:16,560 that we also had to put together the 202 00:08:22,710 --> 00:08:19,520 entire security infrastructure of the 203 00:08:24,469 --> 00:08:22,720 organization which meant that we had to 204 00:08:27,270 --> 00:08:24,479 outfit buildings 205 00:08:29,510 --> 00:08:27,280 um to so that they could be accredited 206 00:08:32,230 --> 00:08:29,520 by the defense intelligence agency and 207 00:08:35,509 --> 00:08:32,240 the national security agency to handle 208 00:08:38,310 --> 00:08:35,519 top secret communications top seek 209 00:08:40,149 --> 00:08:38,320 secret material and top secret documents 210 00:08:43,190 --> 00:08:40,159 so that whole thing was running in 211 00:08:46,150 --> 00:08:43,200 parallel so the people in washington dc 212 00:08:48,550 --> 00:08:46,160 you mentioned dr james lukowski 213 00:08:51,350 --> 00:08:48,560 were very very active during that whole 214 00:08:53,190 --> 00:08:51,360 period because we were working in tandem 215 00:08:55,829 --> 00:08:53,200 out of las vegas 216 00:08:57,750 --> 00:08:55,839 the main team of 50 people were working 217 00:09:01,910 --> 00:08:57,760 in las vegas but at the same time there 218 00:09:03,990 --> 00:09:01,920 was a separate arm out in washington dc 219 00:09:06,230 --> 00:09:04,000 who were tasked with getting all of the 220 00:09:07,829 --> 00:09:06,240 security infrastructure together and i 221 00:09:09,990 --> 00:09:07,839 don't know how much you know about 222 00:09:14,310 --> 00:09:10,000 government programs but getting 223 00:09:15,910 --> 00:09:14,320 fast-tracked top-secret sci clearances 224 00:09:18,230 --> 00:09:15,920 in a matter of months just doesn't 225 00:09:21,190 --> 00:09:18,240 happen right i mean this this was an 226 00:09:23,350 --> 00:09:21,200 extraordinary achievement to to put 227 00:09:25,990 --> 00:09:23,360 together not only the security 228 00:09:29,350 --> 00:09:26,000 infrastructure but also have the people 229 00:09:31,590 --> 00:09:29,360 involved and also um get the whole thing 230 00:09:34,070 --> 00:09:31,600 up and running within a six-month period 231 00:09:36,870 --> 00:09:34,080 uh like i said i would guess the normal 232 00:09:38,389 --> 00:09:36,880 way things are done uh for a government 233 00:09:40,949 --> 00:09:38,399 program would be to have that kind of 234 00:09:43,430 --> 00:09:40,959 thing up maybe in two years maybe three 235 00:09:45,910 --> 00:09:43,440 years so um it was an extraordinary 236 00:09:48,150 --> 00:09:45,920 rapid pace and the reason for that was 237 00:09:50,070 --> 00:09:48,160 that we knew that the clock was ticking 238 00:09:53,509 --> 00:09:50,080 this was a very very controversial 239 00:09:56,230 --> 00:09:53,519 program even within the pentagon so we 240 00:09:59,430 --> 00:09:56,240 knew that there was a lot of people who 241 00:10:01,829 --> 00:09:59,440 a did not want to see this happen at all 242 00:10:03,590 --> 00:10:01,839 but b once was up and running they were 243 00:10:04,710 --> 00:10:03,600 really interested in taking some of the 244 00:10:06,550 --> 00:10:04,720 money 245 00:10:08,630 --> 00:10:06,560 and see they were really interested in 246 00:10:10,550 --> 00:10:08,640 shutting down the program so there was a 247 00:10:11,829 --> 00:10:10,560 lot of 248 00:10:14,470 --> 00:10:11,839 internal 249 00:10:16,630 --> 00:10:14,480 activity going on that the people in 250 00:10:18,949 --> 00:10:16,640 washington dc 251 00:10:22,230 --> 00:10:18,959 really did an excellent job in 252 00:10:25,430 --> 00:10:22,240 preventing any of that from happening so 253 00:10:27,829 --> 00:10:25,440 we actually ran successfully for 24 254 00:10:31,269 --> 00:10:27,839 months with a three month no cost 255 00:10:33,829 --> 00:10:31,279 extension so the the entire 256 00:10:35,590 --> 00:10:33,839 duration of this program was 27 months 257 00:10:38,069 --> 00:10:35,600 months which was 258 00:10:40,310 --> 00:10:38,079 a very very active time 259 00:10:42,550 --> 00:10:40,320 well is it not true that the the acronym 260 00:10:44,870 --> 00:10:42,560 atip was actually a nickname given to 261 00:10:46,790 --> 00:10:44,880 the program for the sole reason to make 262 00:10:49,110 --> 00:10:46,800 it harder for people within the pentagon 263 00:10:51,750 --> 00:10:49,120 to figure out what's actually going on 264 00:10:53,829 --> 00:10:51,760 atip would lead nowhere because awsap is 265 00:10:55,829 --> 00:10:53,839 the actual program so even 266 00:10:58,150 --> 00:10:55,839 i mean high clearance people that's 267 00:11:00,790 --> 00:10:58,160 right osap was the 268 00:11:04,150 --> 00:11:00,800 the program that was um 269 00:11:06,069 --> 00:11:04,160 was put out for bid on the um on the 270 00:11:08,310 --> 00:11:06,079 normal uh way that the federal 271 00:11:09,190 --> 00:11:08,320 government does it goes it used to go 272 00:11:12,389 --> 00:11:09,200 through 273 00:11:14,949 --> 00:11:12,399 a website uh portal called 274 00:11:17,430 --> 00:11:14,959 um what was it called uh 275 00:11:19,269 --> 00:11:17,440 it's now called sam.gov but it was 276 00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:19,279 called something else in in those days 277 00:11:23,670 --> 00:11:21,920 but it was word where um 278 00:11:27,590 --> 00:11:23,680 the dod 279 00:11:30,069 --> 00:11:27,600 or the doe or other other nasa 280 00:11:31,590 --> 00:11:30,079 other organizations used to put programs 281 00:11:34,470 --> 00:11:31,600 out for bid so 282 00:11:37,829 --> 00:11:34,480 this was a competitively bid process 283 00:11:40,630 --> 00:11:37,839 that ended up that the asap program 284 00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:40,640 um was was fully funded by the defense 285 00:11:44,790 --> 00:11:42,560 intelligence agency 286 00:11:45,990 --> 00:11:44,800 the atip 287 00:11:49,110 --> 00:11:46,000 acronym 288 00:11:50,230 --> 00:11:49,120 arose basically as you mentioned 289 00:11:52,790 --> 00:11:50,240 because 290 00:11:56,230 --> 00:11:52,800 the process of acquiring special access 291 00:11:59,030 --> 00:11:56,240 program status which was initiated by 292 00:12:02,310 --> 00:11:59,040 senate majority leader harry reid 293 00:12:03,750 --> 00:12:02,320 as a way of protecting the osap program 294 00:12:05,990 --> 00:12:03,760 because a lot of data was being 295 00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:06,000 accumulated some of that data was 296 00:12:10,710 --> 00:12:09,120 classified and some of the methodology 297 00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:10,720 being used to collect that data was 298 00:12:15,910 --> 00:12:13,200 classified so in order to protect the 299 00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:15,920 program uh further senator reid 300 00:12:19,829 --> 00:12:17,440 initiated this 301 00:12:22,310 --> 00:12:19,839 program with the um with the department 302 00:12:25,190 --> 00:12:22,320 of defense in order to gain special 303 00:12:29,269 --> 00:12:25,200 access program status but a way of 304 00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:29,279 protecting uh the nut the information on 305 00:12:34,710 --> 00:12:32,320 awesome was to use a nickname which we 306 00:12:37,350 --> 00:12:34,720 called atip in order to protect the 307 00:12:40,310 --> 00:12:37,360 program so atip was nothing more than 308 00:12:42,870 --> 00:12:40,320 essentially a nickname it had no basis 309 00:12:43,910 --> 00:12:42,880 as a program it had no basis even as a 310 00:12:47,509 --> 00:12:43,920 project 311 00:12:51,670 --> 00:12:47,519 but later on sort of several years later 312 00:12:53,670 --> 00:12:51,680 that the the word atip was used 313 00:12:56,629 --> 00:12:53,680 to essentially 314 00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:56,639 name a an unfunded 315 00:13:01,590 --> 00:12:59,040 collab collaborative project that was 316 00:13:03,750 --> 00:13:01,600 operating behind the scenes from people 317 00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:03,760 who were working on their own time 318 00:13:07,750 --> 00:13:05,600 people who were collaborating with each 319 00:13:08,710 --> 00:13:07,760 other within the department of defense 320 00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:08,720 so 321 00:13:13,030 --> 00:13:11,040 when the new york times article in 322 00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:13,040 december 2017 323 00:13:16,629 --> 00:13:14,560 published 324 00:13:17,990 --> 00:13:16,639 this you know they basically broke the 325 00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:18,000 whole program 326 00:13:24,470 --> 00:13:21,360 they mistakenly used that um 327 00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:24,480 acronym atip instead of the word asap 328 00:13:29,430 --> 00:13:26,480 and they mistakenly assigned louis 329 00:13:31,509 --> 00:13:29,440 elizondo to be head of this program 330 00:13:33,670 --> 00:13:31,519 linking it with the 22 million dollars 331 00:13:35,750 --> 00:13:33,680 in funding and that you know that was a 332 00:13:39,750 --> 00:13:35,760 mistake in reporting by the new york 333 00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:39,760 times um but it said in ch in in motion 334 00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:41,360 a chain of events 335 00:13:46,150 --> 00:13:44,240 that um escalated the the 336 00:13:48,949 --> 00:13:46,160 whole um 337 00:13:51,509 --> 00:13:48,959 effort of a tip into something that 338 00:13:54,870 --> 00:13:51,519 never it never never should have right 339 00:13:57,509 --> 00:13:54,880 awsap was the program that ran for 27 340 00:14:00,150 --> 00:13:57,519 months awesome was the program that had 341 00:14:03,509 --> 00:14:00,160 22 million dollars of funding awesome 342 00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:03,519 was the program that had 50 full-time 343 00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:06,320 um professionals that were working 344 00:14:11,430 --> 00:14:09,040 you know 40 to 60 hours a week on this 345 00:14:14,949 --> 00:14:11,440 program a tip on the other hand was not 346 00:14:18,550 --> 00:14:14,959 a funded program a tip was uh was was 347 00:14:22,310 --> 00:14:18,560 not an officially sanctioned program it 348 00:14:25,350 --> 00:14:22,320 was a an unofficial collaborative effort 349 00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:25,360 between people in the pentagon who had 350 00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:28,160 an interest in this topic and who were 351 00:14:30,389 --> 00:14:29,360 trying to 352 00:14:33,350 --> 00:14:30,399 interview 353 00:14:37,269 --> 00:14:33,360 uh pilots and other military personnel 354 00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:39,750 so one of the things that um 355 00:14:53,670 --> 00:14:40,560 i 356 00:14:55,509 --> 00:14:53,680 temperature drops 357 00:14:58,629 --> 00:14:55,519 did you experience that yourself as well 358 00:15:01,110 --> 00:14:58,639 sir like this the drops in temperatures 359 00:15:04,629 --> 00:15:01,120 yes i i you know like i mentioned i 360 00:15:07,269 --> 00:15:04,639 spent about 300 days and nights on uh on 361 00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:07,279 skin worker ranch and there were times 362 00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:09,120 when you would get these 363 00:15:13,750 --> 00:15:11,600 um especially at nighttime you would get 364 00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:13,760 these sudden drops in temperature 365 00:15:17,829 --> 00:15:16,160 um and that they were they always had 366 00:15:20,069 --> 00:15:17,839 physical boundaries 367 00:15:21,910 --> 00:15:20,079 um you could you could move outside the 368 00:15:24,230 --> 00:15:21,920 zone of low temperature 369 00:15:25,189 --> 00:15:24,240 um but you know that was that was a sort 370 00:15:26,470 --> 00:15:25,199 of a 371 00:15:27,670 --> 00:15:26,480 a really 372 00:15:30,629 --> 00:15:27,680 um 373 00:15:32,550 --> 00:15:30,639 obvious marker for these three 374 00:15:34,949 --> 00:15:32,560 intelligence agency people that have 375 00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:34,959 been deployed on skin worker ranch they 376 00:15:39,749 --> 00:15:36,800 ran into one of these low-temperature 377 00:15:41,509 --> 00:15:39,759 zones on their way down to the west end 378 00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:41,519 of the skinwalker ranch 379 00:15:47,110 --> 00:15:44,880 and um you know it was a really obvious 380 00:15:50,230 --> 00:15:47,120 drop in temperature but 381 00:15:52,230 --> 00:15:50,240 those those effects were not uncommon on 382 00:15:54,949 --> 00:15:52,240 on skin marker range 383 00:15:57,110 --> 00:15:54,959 let's talk about the wide variety of 384 00:15:59,030 --> 00:15:57,120 phenomenon you know 10 years ago if you 385 00:16:00,870 --> 00:15:59,040 told somebody ufos and bigfoots are 386 00:16:04,790 --> 00:16:00,880 probably related they'd laugh at you 387 00:16:07,189 --> 00:16:04,800 right but we've had reports of ufos uh 388 00:16:10,150 --> 00:16:07,199 cryptids temperature drops as jason 389 00:16:12,310 --> 00:16:10,160 mentioned orbs blue and other colors 390 00:16:15,189 --> 00:16:12,320 wolf hybrids or skin walkers quote 391 00:16:17,829 --> 00:16:15,199 unquote poltergeist phenomenon cattle 392 00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:17,839 mutilation holes in the sky 393 00:16:21,749 --> 00:16:19,120 people have had 394 00:16:24,069 --> 00:16:21,759 physical medical injuries from 395 00:16:25,749 --> 00:16:24,079 encounters with blue orbs 396 00:16:26,949 --> 00:16:25,759 and you know we talk about in your or 397 00:16:29,110 --> 00:16:26,959 you talk about in your book the 398 00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:29,120 hitchhiker effect so maybe explain a 399 00:16:34,069 --> 00:16:32,160 little bit about how strange it is and 400 00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:34,079 how much more strange it was that you 401 00:16:37,350 --> 00:16:36,000 know people didn't even expect it was 402 00:16:39,350 --> 00:16:37,360 going to go down that hole i know george 403 00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:39,360 knapp last week said we didn't want it 404 00:16:43,990 --> 00:16:41,360 to turn into this we didn't expect that 405 00:16:45,910 --> 00:16:44,000 it was going to be poltergeist and ufos 406 00:16:48,829 --> 00:16:45,920 and cryptids and all the rest we thought 407 00:16:51,110 --> 00:16:48,839 we were doing a nuts and bolts you know 408 00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:51,120 military-focused uh operation with us 409 00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:54,240 app long-term and just looking at actual 410 00:16:59,110 --> 00:16:56,800 repeatable data and then all of this 411 00:17:01,030 --> 00:16:59,120 sort of metaphysical stuff just came 412 00:17:03,269 --> 00:17:01,040 along with it so maybe you could comment 413 00:17:05,750 --> 00:17:03,279 on that yeah 414 00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:05,760 we we did start off with putting a lot 415 00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:09,280 of emphasis on skin marker ranch and you 416 00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:11,280 know one one of the things that tends to 417 00:17:14,949 --> 00:17:12,720 be forgotten 418 00:17:18,309 --> 00:17:14,959 with uh skinwalker ranch is that from 419 00:17:22,309 --> 00:17:18,319 the very very beginning 420 00:17:24,949 --> 00:17:22,319 nuts and bolts ufos were routinely seen 421 00:17:26,789 --> 00:17:24,959 on skin marker ranch 422 00:17:30,470 --> 00:17:26,799 there was a ranching family that first 423 00:17:31,669 --> 00:17:30,480 took possession in 1994 424 00:17:33,110 --> 00:17:31,679 they saw 425 00:17:36,230 --> 00:17:33,120 nuts and bolts 426 00:17:37,669 --> 00:17:36,240 objects flying around that that were you 427 00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:37,679 know ufos 428 00:17:41,110 --> 00:17:38,480 um 429 00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:41,120 right after robert bigelow purchased the 430 00:17:46,549 --> 00:17:44,160 property i was standing with a physicist 431 00:17:47,830 --> 00:17:46,559 outside the the main command and control 432 00:17:51,190 --> 00:17:47,840 center 433 00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:51,200 when i saw this object coming from uh 434 00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:54,240 just from behind skinwalker ridge which 435 00:17:58,630 --> 00:17:56,160 runs across the north end of the 436 00:18:00,549 --> 00:17:58,640 property this thing was traveling as 437 00:18:04,150 --> 00:18:00,559 fast as an f-18 438 00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:04,160 very very fast very low but the spooky 439 00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:06,880 thing about it was it was really silent 440 00:18:11,830 --> 00:18:09,360 so it came right above our heads 441 00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:11,840 um you know as we stood watching it 442 00:18:15,350 --> 00:18:13,760 brightly lit but you could see it was 443 00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:15,360 low enough from the sky that there was 444 00:18:20,310 --> 00:18:17,840 structure behind it and it came right 445 00:18:22,870 --> 00:18:20,320 over our heads did a perfect 446 00:18:26,150 --> 00:18:22,880 u-turn and then shot back over 447 00:18:29,350 --> 00:18:26,160 skinwalker ridge heading northwest but 448 00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:29,360 it was absolutely silent you could see 449 00:18:32,310 --> 00:18:31,280 you know you could see structure behind 450 00:18:34,470 --> 00:18:32,320 the light 451 00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:34,480 um but the it was so eerie because it 452 00:18:39,430 --> 00:18:36,480 was so silent but that was 453 00:18:40,549 --> 00:18:39,440 obviously a structured uh object right 454 00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:40,559 um 455 00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:43,200 so i personally came in contact with the 456 00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:45,200 so-called nuts and bolts phenomena on 457 00:18:47,590 --> 00:18:46,320 the ranch 458 00:18:51,029 --> 00:18:47,600 um 459 00:18:52,950 --> 00:18:51,039 axelrod in 2009 with his 460 00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:52,960 with his companions 461 00:18:57,750 --> 00:18:55,520 actually photographed an object that 462 00:19:01,190 --> 00:18:57,760 looked like it was a metallic object on 463 00:19:03,669 --> 00:19:01,200 skinwalker ranch in 2009 robert bigelow 464 00:19:06,549 --> 00:19:03,679 sold the property in 2016 to brandon 465 00:19:09,190 --> 00:19:06,559 fugle property developer from salt lake 466 00:19:10,549 --> 00:19:09,200 city he deployed a bunch of scientists 467 00:19:12,549 --> 00:19:10,559 on the property 468 00:19:15,669 --> 00:19:12,559 to continue the kind of research that 469 00:19:17,830 --> 00:19:15,679 had been done and lo and behold he's on 470 00:19:20,789 --> 00:19:17,840 the record and his his team are on the 471 00:19:24,070 --> 00:19:20,799 record with having seen nuts and bolts 472 00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:24,080 uh objects so that the ground the ground 473 00:19:29,990 --> 00:19:27,120 zero phenomena on skin worker ranch were 474 00:19:33,590 --> 00:19:30,000 nuts and bolts phenomena but layered on 475 00:19:36,950 --> 00:19:33,600 top of that uh co-locating and happening 476 00:19:39,669 --> 00:19:36,960 at the same time you had orbs of various 477 00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:39,679 colors flying around the property i mean 478 00:19:43,990 --> 00:19:42,000 we routinely saw yellow orbs flying 479 00:19:47,110 --> 00:19:44,000 around the property but there were also 480 00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:47,120 blue orbs and red orbs that were seen 481 00:19:51,750 --> 00:19:49,440 cattle mutilations were very common on 482 00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:51,760 the property cattle disappearances 483 00:19:56,870 --> 00:19:54,080 animal disappearances there was 484 00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:56,880 discarnate voices you know voices that 485 00:20:01,830 --> 00:19:59,600 were sort of speaking out of nowhere in 486 00:20:04,070 --> 00:20:01,840 the darkness to people 487 00:20:05,110 --> 00:20:04,080 we had unusual creatures as you had 488 00:20:07,909 --> 00:20:05,120 mentioned 489 00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:07,919 on the property poltergeist activity was 490 00:20:13,590 --> 00:20:11,280 routine both in all of the houses as 491 00:20:16,070 --> 00:20:13,600 well as out on the property 492 00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:16,080 things would get moved around the 493 00:20:20,549 --> 00:20:18,960 the internal of the house you would find 494 00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:20,559 your car keys would end up in the 495 00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:23,760 microwave and this kind of thing um 496 00:20:29,750 --> 00:20:26,240 randomly and and it happened all the 497 00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:29,760 time uh black shadows humanoid shadows 498 00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:31,360 were routinely seen 499 00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:33,520 so it was kind of like this 500 00:20:38,549 --> 00:20:36,240 layer upon layer upon layer of 501 00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:38,559 paranormal activity 502 00:20:42,950 --> 00:20:40,960 that was associated with the the nuts 503 00:20:45,830 --> 00:20:42,960 and bolts activity but you know as 504 00:20:48,630 --> 00:20:45,840 george knapp mentioned 505 00:20:51,270 --> 00:20:48,640 we went in determined 506 00:20:52,549 --> 00:20:51,280 uh with the ossop program we went into 507 00:20:53,590 --> 00:20:52,559 determined 508 00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:53,600 to 509 00:20:58,870 --> 00:20:56,880 you know maximize the data collection 510 00:21:01,510 --> 00:20:58,880 and that was it we were we were 511 00:21:03,029 --> 00:21:01,520 following the scientific method maximize 512 00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:03,039 data collection 513 00:21:07,590 --> 00:21:05,520 not only the nuts and bolts but also 514 00:21:10,390 --> 00:21:07,600 anything else that happened that could 515 00:21:13,270 --> 00:21:10,400 be defined as an anomaly 516 00:21:15,750 --> 00:21:13,280 and not to collect that kind of data is 517 00:21:18,310 --> 00:21:15,760 unscientific in in the way we were 518 00:21:20,230 --> 00:21:18,320 looking at things so from the get-go we 519 00:21:23,510 --> 00:21:20,240 had permission from the defense 520 00:21:26,470 --> 00:21:23,520 intelligence agency to not only collect 521 00:21:29,350 --> 00:21:26,480 all of the sensor driven data on ufo 522 00:21:32,630 --> 00:21:29,360 performance you know the altitude the 523 00:21:34,789 --> 00:21:32,640 the lights uh videotape um 524 00:21:37,909 --> 00:21:34,799 and and you know all of all of those 525 00:21:39,270 --> 00:21:37,919 aspects of ufo performance but also we 526 00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:39,280 had the mandate from the defense 527 00:21:44,950 --> 00:21:41,760 intelligence agency to collect any 528 00:21:48,950 --> 00:21:44,960 additional data that constituted human 529 00:21:53,110 --> 00:21:48,960 effects effects of of ufos on human 530 00:21:55,190 --> 00:21:53,120 biology uh human psychology or any any 531 00:21:57,750 --> 00:21:55,200 effects that could be deemed uh 532 00:22:00,390 --> 00:21:57,760 paranormal and you know we did not go 533 00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:00,400 into this program to start collecting 534 00:22:05,990 --> 00:22:03,120 data on paranormal activity we went into 535 00:22:08,149 --> 00:22:06,000 this program to collect data and it just 536 00:22:09,750 --> 00:22:08,159 happened that in the process of 537 00:22:11,990 --> 00:22:09,760 following the data 538 00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:12,000 we ended up collecting a lot of this 539 00:22:19,110 --> 00:22:15,440 unusual phenomena data but you know 540 00:22:21,029 --> 00:22:19,120 remember skidmarker ranch is not unique 541 00:22:23,909 --> 00:22:21,039 there are multiple different areas 542 00:22:26,470 --> 00:22:23,919 around the united states for example 543 00:22:28,789 --> 00:22:26,480 dulce new mexico 544 00:22:30,149 --> 00:22:28,799 san luis valley in colorado we spent 545 00:22:32,549 --> 00:22:30,159 some time in 546 00:22:34,310 --> 00:22:32,559 also 547 00:22:36,789 --> 00:22:34,320 one of our colleagues spent a lot of 548 00:22:39,750 --> 00:22:36,799 time up near malston air force base in 549 00:22:43,110 --> 00:22:39,760 montana collected enormous amounts of 550 00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:43,120 data on ufo performance around maelstrom 551 00:22:48,789 --> 00:22:45,600 air force base but also collected a lot 552 00:22:50,870 --> 00:22:48,799 of weird data on anomalies including 553 00:22:54,549 --> 00:22:50,880 cattle mutilations 554 00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:54,559 orbs and unusual creatures so skid 555 00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:57,120 walker ranch is not this kind of you 556 00:23:00,870 --> 00:22:59,440 know weird basket that you can shove 557 00:23:04,789 --> 00:23:00,880 aside 558 00:23:07,430 --> 00:23:04,799 we maintain that if if a ufo program 559 00:23:08,950 --> 00:23:07,440 takes the time and takes the sort of the 560 00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:08,960 long-term view 561 00:23:15,430 --> 00:23:12,320 of constantly reinterviewing uh ufo 562 00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:15,440 witnesses eventually these witnesses 563 00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:18,080 will start talking about the long-term 564 00:23:23,750 --> 00:23:21,280 effects of ufos have on their lives and 565 00:23:26,390 --> 00:23:23,760 that does include some medical effects 566 00:23:29,270 --> 00:23:26,400 it includes um some psychological 567 00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:29,280 effects sometimes people's sleep 568 00:23:33,110 --> 00:23:31,200 patterns are disturbed 569 00:23:34,630 --> 00:23:33,120 they they they go into this sort of 570 00:23:37,190 --> 00:23:34,640 trauma 571 00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:37,200 following a close encounter with the ufo 572 00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:40,320 and sometimes even paranormal activity 573 00:23:45,269 --> 00:23:42,720 start uh you know starts erupting around 574 00:23:46,149 --> 00:23:45,279 them but you know you've got to be able 575 00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:46,159 to 576 00:23:51,430 --> 00:23:48,720 um follow these people long term that's 577 00:23:53,990 --> 00:23:51,440 number one you know the weekend warrior 578 00:23:56,149 --> 00:23:54,000 model of ufo investigation where you 579 00:23:58,070 --> 00:23:56,159 just go out on a saturday and a sunday 580 00:23:59,750 --> 00:23:58,080 you collect the data and you never sort 581 00:24:01,909 --> 00:23:59,760 of see the witness again 582 00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:01,919 that will not get you the kind of data 583 00:24:07,190 --> 00:24:04,960 that asap collected because we had you 584 00:24:09,669 --> 00:24:07,200 know we had md phd 585 00:24:12,149 --> 00:24:09,679 medical professionals that were 586 00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:12,159 consultants that worked with us 587 00:24:16,390 --> 00:24:14,000 and we were able to 588 00:24:19,029 --> 00:24:16,400 deploy these medical professionals in 589 00:24:22,230 --> 00:24:19,039 some cases for months and in a couple of 590 00:24:25,029 --> 00:24:22,240 cases even for years to follow up on the 591 00:24:27,430 --> 00:24:25,039 on the medical consequences of ufo 592 00:24:31,029 --> 00:24:27,440 phenomena we were able to take serial 593 00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:31,039 blood samples we were able to take mri 594 00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:34,480 um imaging um so we were able to put 595 00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:36,000 together these 596 00:24:43,110 --> 00:24:38,320 very detailed medical 597 00:24:44,390 --> 00:24:43,120 uh pictures of what what a ufo witness 598 00:24:47,190 --> 00:24:44,400 encounter 599 00:24:49,110 --> 00:24:47,200 uh life looked like including serial 600 00:24:51,269 --> 00:24:49,120 blood samples so we were able to 601 00:24:52,630 --> 00:24:51,279 documented changes in 602 00:24:56,230 --> 00:24:52,640 immunology 603 00:24:58,070 --> 00:24:56,240 um biochemistry hematology and some of 604 00:24:59,470 --> 00:24:58,080 these witnesses so we were able to put 605 00:25:01,669 --> 00:24:59,480 together pretty 606 00:25:02,870 --> 00:25:01,679 sophisticated pictures 607 00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:02,880 and you know 608 00:25:07,590 --> 00:25:03,679 our 609 00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:07,600 you know opinion is that the awesome 610 00:25:13,190 --> 00:25:10,640 template for how things were operating 611 00:25:14,870 --> 00:25:13,200 was really the one the template for any 612 00:25:18,870 --> 00:25:14,880 future ufo 613 00:25:20,549 --> 00:25:18,880 uh program if you if you uh constrain a 614 00:25:23,510 --> 00:25:20,559 ufo program 615 00:25:26,710 --> 00:25:23,520 and you only look at a certain 616 00:25:29,350 --> 00:25:26,720 narrow rifle shot of data 617 00:25:31,830 --> 00:25:29,360 and you exclude 95 of the data that's 618 00:25:34,789 --> 00:25:31,840 coming in and you only look at this sort 619 00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:34,799 of a tiny you know data stream you're 620 00:25:38,710 --> 00:25:36,000 going to miss 621 00:25:40,149 --> 00:25:38,720 the entire phenomena and if you make 622 00:25:41,750 --> 00:25:40,159 excuses 623 00:25:44,470 --> 00:25:41,760 like some people in the department of 624 00:25:46,789 --> 00:25:44,480 defense are saying that this is not in 625 00:25:49,750 --> 00:25:46,799 the purview of the department of defense 626 00:25:52,710 --> 00:25:49,760 to study this these kinds of activities 627 00:25:55,510 --> 00:25:52,720 you're automatically being unscientific 628 00:25:58,630 --> 00:25:55,520 and you're automatically torpedoing the 629 00:26:01,430 --> 00:25:58,640 the the prospect of putting together a 630 00:26:02,470 --> 00:26:01,440 coherent picture of what this phenomenon 631 00:26:05,029 --> 00:26:02,480 is 632 00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:05,039 if you look at the acronym osap it's 633 00:26:10,870 --> 00:26:07,600 advanced aerospace weapon system 634 00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:10,880 application so by its very definition 635 00:26:15,830 --> 00:26:13,200 aerospace weapon systems so i guess the 636 00:26:18,149 --> 00:26:15,840 initial intent is can we utilize this 637 00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:18,159 can we weaponize this as most countries 638 00:26:21,510 --> 00:26:20,400 would do when researching the same and 639 00:26:24,310 --> 00:26:21,520 like you said 640 00:26:26,390 --> 00:26:24,320 if if the data and the science is taking 641 00:26:28,710 --> 00:26:26,400 you a direction if it really is a 642 00:26:30,549 --> 00:26:28,720 credible project you don't have those 643 00:26:32,870 --> 00:26:30,559 boundaries and limitations anymore you 644 00:26:34,630 --> 00:26:32,880 go where the data is and i've heard you 645 00:26:35,909 --> 00:26:34,640 on another interview mention that once 646 00:26:37,590 --> 00:26:35,919 there was boots on the ground at 647 00:26:39,750 --> 00:26:37,600 skinwalker ranch there was people from 648 00:26:41,510 --> 00:26:39,760 all different government agencies and 649 00:26:43,510 --> 00:26:41,520 there was a case of five separate 650 00:26:46,710 --> 00:26:43,520 intelligence officers all from different 651 00:26:49,669 --> 00:26:46,720 branches all five had hitchhiker effects 652 00:26:51,190 --> 00:26:49,679 uh there was a biotechnologist who saw 653 00:26:53,110 --> 00:26:51,200 you know three blue orbs moving 654 00:26:55,909 --> 00:26:53,120 erratically his daughter saw them they 655 00:26:57,830 --> 00:26:55,919 even entered his car so even the staff 656 00:27:00,230 --> 00:26:57,840 that are going there to do nuts and 657 00:27:02,630 --> 00:27:00,240 bolts science and collect data become 658 00:27:03,909 --> 00:27:02,640 part of the study because it's not just 659 00:27:06,070 --> 00:27:03,919 the stuff that they're you know if 660 00:27:08,789 --> 00:27:06,080 you're looking for for witnesses and 661 00:27:11,669 --> 00:27:08,799 hands-on experiencers who better than 662 00:27:13,909 --> 00:27:11,679 science-minded trained observers to 663 00:27:15,990 --> 00:27:13,919 document exactly what's happening so it 664 00:27:17,990 --> 00:27:16,000 sort of took on a life of its own 665 00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:18,000 and did you did you experience any 666 00:27:23,029 --> 00:27:20,480 hitchhiker effects of your own sir like 667 00:27:25,990 --> 00:27:23,039 did that happen to you too 668 00:27:28,789 --> 00:27:26,000 yes i i think pretty well everybody who 669 00:27:31,430 --> 00:27:28,799 was on the property um 670 00:27:34,070 --> 00:27:31,440 uh experienced hitchhikers hitchhiker 671 00:27:36,789 --> 00:27:34,080 effects but the the type of effects that 672 00:27:38,630 --> 00:27:36,799 i experienced where um you know my wife 673 00:27:40,710 --> 00:27:38,640 would wake up and see 674 00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:40,720 uh you know people walking in the 675 00:27:46,230 --> 00:27:42,960 bedroom walking towards the bed 676 00:27:48,149 --> 00:27:46,240 um they occasionally black shadows were 677 00:27:51,669 --> 00:27:48,159 seen in the house and this kind of thing 678 00:27:54,710 --> 00:27:51,679 but it never really escalated until 679 00:27:56,470 --> 00:27:54,720 the defense intelligence agency in 2000 680 00:27:58,230 --> 00:27:56,480 late 2008 681 00:28:00,630 --> 00:27:58,240 um started 682 00:28:03,750 --> 00:28:00,640 sending their personnel from different 683 00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:03,760 armed services navy army 684 00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:05,520 marines 685 00:28:11,269 --> 00:28:08,080 to skinwalker ranch in order to 686 00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:11,279 corroborate or validate the claims of 687 00:28:17,510 --> 00:28:13,840 unusual activity that was going on there 688 00:28:19,590 --> 00:28:17,520 so they conducted site visits by sending 689 00:28:21,750 --> 00:28:19,600 trained observers from the different 690 00:28:24,470 --> 00:28:21,760 intelligence agencies and the different 691 00:28:26,230 --> 00:28:24,480 armed services so as you mentioned five 692 00:28:28,149 --> 00:28:26,240 out of five of those people who were 693 00:28:30,310 --> 00:28:28,159 deployed at different times 694 00:28:33,750 --> 00:28:30,320 not only had dramatic effects on the 695 00:28:36,389 --> 00:28:33,760 property but also brought um brought 696 00:28:38,710 --> 00:28:36,399 anomalies home with them in other words 697 00:28:40,870 --> 00:28:38,720 you know particularly the head of the 698 00:28:44,230 --> 00:28:40,880 of the uh the 699 00:28:47,269 --> 00:28:44,240 the field field observation unit was a 700 00:28:49,669 --> 00:28:47,279 guy called axelrod he brought 701 00:28:51,190 --> 00:28:49,679 he brought a lot of activity home with 702 00:28:53,430 --> 00:28:51,200 him so 703 00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:53,440 in his home in all the way out in 704 00:28:58,230 --> 00:28:55,440 virginia you know two and a half 705 00:29:01,269 --> 00:28:58,240 thousand miles from the ranch within a 706 00:29:04,070 --> 00:29:01,279 month of him arriving home after seeing 707 00:29:07,269 --> 00:29:04,080 what he saw on on the skidmarker ranch 708 00:29:10,389 --> 00:29:07,279 his wife started seeing unusual stuff he 709 00:29:13,029 --> 00:29:10,399 had two teenage sons at the time in his 710 00:29:15,990 --> 00:29:13,039 home they started seeing unusual 711 00:29:19,029 --> 00:29:16,000 creatures they would wake up with these 712 00:29:21,669 --> 00:29:19,039 sort of black shadowy humanoids 713 00:29:24,070 --> 00:29:21,679 you know over their beds 714 00:29:26,870 --> 00:29:24,080 they would wake up with orbs 715 00:29:29,190 --> 00:29:26,880 blue or red orbs in their bedroom flying 716 00:29:32,549 --> 00:29:29,200 through the bedroom they would see 717 00:29:34,870 --> 00:29:32,559 bizarre creatures outside the uh their 718 00:29:36,789 --> 00:29:34,880 homes there was one particular case 719 00:29:39,909 --> 00:29:36,799 where um 720 00:29:42,230 --> 00:29:39,919 axelrod's wife was going to bed at night 721 00:29:44,389 --> 00:29:42,240 in their in their place in virginia i 722 00:29:46,549 --> 00:29:44,399 was just sort of locking up and shutting 723 00:29:49,590 --> 00:29:46,559 down all the lights in the backyard when 724 00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:49,600 she saw this thing um in the 725 00:29:52,549 --> 00:29:51,200 in the backyard 726 00:29:54,789 --> 00:29:52,559 in a tree line 727 00:29:57,590 --> 00:29:54,799 and it was like an upstanding it looked 728 00:29:59,269 --> 00:29:57,600 like a large wolf but it was standing on 729 00:30:01,669 --> 00:29:59,279 two legs which was 730 00:30:04,070 --> 00:30:01,679 anatomically impossible 731 00:30:06,389 --> 00:30:04,080 um you know it's okay for a sort of a 732 00:30:08,710 --> 00:30:06,399 german shepherd to stand on its rear 733 00:30:11,750 --> 00:30:08,720 legs and totter around but this thing 734 00:30:14,549 --> 00:30:11,760 was standing comfortably on two legs 735 00:30:16,789 --> 00:30:14,559 looking at her in a very unfriendly way 736 00:30:19,029 --> 00:30:16,799 she was completely shocked and 737 00:30:22,470 --> 00:30:19,039 traumatized to the extent that she 738 00:30:23,909 --> 00:30:22,480 decided she was either hallucinating or 739 00:30:25,990 --> 00:30:23,919 something else was happening but she 740 00:30:28,389 --> 00:30:26,000 said i'm not going to say anything to my 741 00:30:30,470 --> 00:30:28,399 family at all 742 00:30:32,710 --> 00:30:30,480 two or three days later saturday morning 743 00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:32,720 10 o'clock in the morning bright sunny 744 00:30:38,789 --> 00:30:35,600 morning that the two teenage boys were 745 00:30:41,430 --> 00:30:38,799 downstairs and the uh the window 746 00:30:44,389 --> 00:30:41,440 overlooks the backyard one of the boys 747 00:30:47,830 --> 00:30:44,399 looks out and standing in the backyard 748 00:30:50,310 --> 00:30:47,840 in full daylight was another apparition 749 00:30:53,830 --> 00:30:50,320 it looked like a uh 750 00:30:56,389 --> 00:30:53,840 a large wolf standing on two legs again 751 00:30:59,029 --> 00:30:56,399 looking in at him staring at him in a 752 00:31:01,269 --> 00:30:59,039 very unfriendly way he alerted his 753 00:31:05,269 --> 00:31:01,279 brother and the two of them watched as 754 00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:05,279 this thing ran right across the backyard 755 00:31:10,230 --> 00:31:07,840 kicking up leaves as it went 756 00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:10,240 and sort of um you know running 757 00:31:14,950 --> 00:31:11,840 comfortably 758 00:31:17,350 --> 00:31:14,960 anatomically impossible of course on two 759 00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:17,360 legs and then disappeared into the tree 760 00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:19,440 line where the you know the wife had 761 00:31:23,269 --> 00:31:21,760 seen the the animal three nights before 762 00:31:25,190 --> 00:31:23,279 two nights before 763 00:31:27,750 --> 00:31:25,200 but this thing was kicking up leaves as 764 00:31:29,350 --> 00:31:27,760 it ran so it looked like it was having 765 00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:29,360 some kind of physical effect on the 766 00:31:33,750 --> 00:31:31,360 environment the family 767 00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:33,760 you know got together right after this 768 00:31:38,710 --> 00:31:35,840 incident because the two kids were 769 00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:38,720 terrified by what they had just seen uh 770 00:31:43,110 --> 00:31:41,440 the family got together um and it turned 771 00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:43,120 out you know the wife 772 00:31:46,549 --> 00:31:44,960 eventually admitted that she had seen 773 00:31:48,789 --> 00:31:46,559 something like this 774 00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:48,799 a couple of nights before so they all 775 00:31:52,230 --> 00:31:50,960 went out to the backyard and went over 776 00:31:55,269 --> 00:31:52,240 to the tree 777 00:31:57,590 --> 00:31:55,279 where she had seen this creature and on 778 00:32:00,389 --> 00:31:57,600 the tree were these obvious 779 00:32:01,350 --> 00:32:00,399 lengthy claw marks that had 780 00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:01,360 you know 781 00:32:06,870 --> 00:32:04,000 been embedded in the bark of the tree 782 00:32:09,350 --> 00:32:06,880 so you know the implication of that was 783 00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:09,360 that there was physical evidence 784 00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:10,240 from 785 00:32:16,149 --> 00:32:12,960 whatever had been this upright wolf-like 786 00:32:19,509 --> 00:32:16,159 creature um so it was capable of 787 00:32:21,509 --> 00:32:19,519 interacting with the environment so you 788 00:32:23,830 --> 00:32:21,519 know people would tend a skeptic would 789 00:32:26,389 --> 00:32:23,840 tend to say well these guys were just 790 00:32:28,710 --> 00:32:26,399 imagining things it was just a sort of a 791 00:32:31,669 --> 00:32:28,720 figment of their imagination but the 792 00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:31,679 fact is that not only was this happening 793 00:32:37,669 --> 00:32:34,480 but there was also physical effects of 794 00:32:40,149 --> 00:32:37,679 these uh this creature that was having 795 00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:40,159 on the environment so it was a lot more 796 00:32:44,870 --> 00:32:43,120 than just somebody's mental fantasy 797 00:32:46,549 --> 00:32:44,880 it was there yeah 798 00:32:48,389 --> 00:32:46,559 i was going to say all three of you guys 799 00:32:49,909 --> 00:32:48,399 had phenomenon at home george knapp 800 00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:49,919 reported that his wife had had some 801 00:32:55,029 --> 00:32:52,159 strange things happen and uh your your 802 00:32:57,110 --> 00:32:55,039 third co-author dr james zakatsky he 803 00:32:59,029 --> 00:32:57,120 reported really intense experiences at 804 00:33:01,269 --> 00:32:59,039 home and georgie said he was probably 805 00:33:03,029 --> 00:33:01,279 the worst off from all of you guys 806 00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:03,039 well there was 807 00:33:07,350 --> 00:33:04,960 if you look at um 808 00:33:10,710 --> 00:33:07,360 you know the 25-year history 809 00:33:13,750 --> 00:33:10,720 starting uh when the ned's group started 810 00:33:16,950 --> 00:33:13,760 on the property going through all of the 811 00:33:19,430 --> 00:33:16,960 assad people we interviewed um you know 812 00:33:21,350 --> 00:33:19,440 a lot of security guards used to rotate 813 00:33:24,070 --> 00:33:21,360 up and down the property so to keep 814 00:33:25,909 --> 00:33:24,080 trespassers off the property 815 00:33:27,990 --> 00:33:25,919 we interviewed george knapp and i 816 00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:28,000 interviewed about a dozen of these 817 00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:30,960 people all of whom had seen 818 00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:33,200 effects in their homes 819 00:33:36,149 --> 00:33:34,480 as i mentioned 820 00:33:39,909 --> 00:33:36,159 when brandon fugal purchased the 821 00:33:42,630 --> 00:33:39,919 property um he he deployed a team on on 822 00:33:45,110 --> 00:33:42,640 the property and lo and behold these 823 00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:45,120 people were really skeptical saying all 824 00:33:49,190 --> 00:33:46,480 this stuff that you know i've been 825 00:33:52,310 --> 00:33:49,200 reading about it's none of it is true 826 00:33:54,389 --> 00:33:52,320 but lo and behold their wives and kids 827 00:33:57,029 --> 00:33:54,399 started seeing all this weird stuff 828 00:34:00,710 --> 00:33:57,039 erupting in their homes so not only was 829 00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:00,720 it just the uh knit stuff and the asap 830 00:34:04,830 --> 00:34:03,840 people but it was also this recent group 831 00:34:07,509 --> 00:34:04,840 between 832 00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:07,519 2016 and 2022 833 00:34:12,149 --> 00:34:09,040 and the these 834 00:34:15,430 --> 00:34:12,159 these uh apparitions and activities in 835 00:34:18,149 --> 00:34:15,440 people's homes are continuing right to 836 00:34:21,270 --> 00:34:18,159 this day i mean it's not like it's like 837 00:34:24,230 --> 00:34:21,280 something in way back in history 838 00:34:26,550 --> 00:34:24,240 um some of the the people like uh who 839 00:34:29,589 --> 00:34:26,560 originally experienced stuff on 840 00:34:31,510 --> 00:34:29,599 skinwalker ranch back in 2009 841 00:34:34,310 --> 00:34:31,520 are still experiencing stuff in their 842 00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:34,320 homes so it's not like um it was sort of 843 00:34:39,510 --> 00:34:37,440 a an uh an apparent sort of phenomenon 844 00:34:41,990 --> 00:34:39,520 that went away the other thing i'd like 845 00:34:45,349 --> 00:34:42,000 to mention is that this is not a 846 00:34:49,510 --> 00:34:45,359 skinwalker ranch specific phenomenon 847 00:34:52,790 --> 00:34:49,520 this hitchhiker effect is not a um 848 00:34:56,149 --> 00:34:52,800 only skidmark around specific phenomenon 849 00:34:58,230 --> 00:34:56,159 because again uh we had that individual 850 00:35:01,510 --> 00:34:58,240 that you mentioned actually 851 00:35:03,270 --> 00:35:01,520 um where he had interacted with three 852 00:35:06,470 --> 00:35:03,280 blue orbs of light 853 00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:06,480 um that were on his way towards bend 854 00:35:12,069 --> 00:35:09,200 oregon he had the daughter in his car 855 00:35:14,470 --> 00:35:12,079 one of the uh three orbs flew towards 856 00:35:16,550 --> 00:35:14,480 the uh the car one of them came through 857 00:35:19,109 --> 00:35:16,560 the the window went right across the 858 00:35:20,630 --> 00:35:19,119 dash and went out the other one went in 859 00:35:22,069 --> 00:35:20,640 front of the car the other one went 860 00:35:24,550 --> 00:35:22,079 through his 861 00:35:26,390 --> 00:35:24,560 shoulder as he was driving the car went 862 00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:26,400 through his body exited his right 863 00:35:31,030 --> 00:35:28,960 shoulder right in front of the daughter 864 00:35:32,790 --> 00:35:31,040 and then he had a whole 865 00:35:35,670 --> 00:35:32,800 sort of lengthy 866 00:35:39,109 --> 00:35:35,680 um extremely traumatic medical 867 00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:39,119 consequences to to that happen but 868 00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:42,400 you know what's sometimes forgotten is 869 00:35:47,430 --> 00:35:45,280 the daughter actually when she went home 870 00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:47,440 uh to the east coast to go back to 871 00:35:49,430 --> 00:35:48,560 college 872 00:35:52,069 --> 00:35:49,440 um 873 00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:52,079 all hell broke loose in her home 874 00:35:55,670 --> 00:35:54,320 all the way out on the east coast with 875 00:35:58,069 --> 00:35:55,680 three of her 876 00:35:59,990 --> 00:35:58,079 uh roommates they shared a roommate you 877 00:36:02,550 --> 00:36:00,000 know roommates going to college 878 00:36:05,510 --> 00:36:02,560 and all of them saw weird creatures in 879 00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:05,520 the house they saw orbs flying around in 880 00:36:11,430 --> 00:36:08,160 their you know in their homes they would 881 00:36:13,990 --> 00:36:11,440 wake up at night on these humanoid black 882 00:36:17,589 --> 00:36:14,000 shadow creatures would be standing over 883 00:36:19,190 --> 00:36:17,599 them very very scary stuff but 884 00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:19,200 that daughter had nothing to do with 885 00:36:25,589 --> 00:36:21,680 skin walker wrench but yet 886 00:36:29,430 --> 00:36:25,599 in terms of close encounters with ufos 887 00:36:32,470 --> 00:36:29,440 one of the long-term effects of having 888 00:36:35,109 --> 00:36:32,480 close encounters with ufos is sometimes 889 00:36:35,829 --> 00:36:35,119 these kinds of hitchhiker effects occur 890 00:36:38,790 --> 00:36:35,839 too 891 00:36:40,870 --> 00:36:38,800 and i should also mention that a subset 892 00:36:43,750 --> 00:36:40,880 of the people who had 893 00:36:46,710 --> 00:36:43,760 um the hitchhiker effect brought some 894 00:36:47,829 --> 00:36:46,720 stuff home with them a subset of family 895 00:36:50,790 --> 00:36:47,839 members 896 00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:50,800 started coming down with a variety of 897 00:36:57,190 --> 00:36:53,440 autoimmune diseases and so you know 898 00:37:00,950 --> 00:36:57,200 you'd have people reporting kawasaki 899 00:37:02,230 --> 00:37:00,960 disease sovereign syndrome lupus and 900 00:37:05,670 --> 00:37:02,240 various other 901 00:37:08,069 --> 00:37:05,680 hashimoto's thyroiditis so a variety of 902 00:37:11,589 --> 00:37:08,079 different autoimmune diseases would 903 00:37:14,150 --> 00:37:11,599 erupt and these were you know 904 00:37:16,950 --> 00:37:14,160 this was not a huge number of people but 905 00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:16,960 it was enough to catch our attention and 906 00:37:22,310 --> 00:37:18,720 uh you know so 907 00:37:25,589 --> 00:37:22,320 i think a future ufo program should take 908 00:37:29,109 --> 00:37:25,599 a careful look at the long-term effects 909 00:37:30,630 --> 00:37:29,119 of the ufo phenomenon on people 910 00:37:32,870 --> 00:37:30,640 well even because 911 00:37:35,430 --> 00:37:32,880 i got to talk to a few people on the 912 00:37:37,030 --> 00:37:35,440 abduction phenomenon and they always 913 00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:37,040 say that you know there could be 914 00:37:41,589 --> 00:37:39,200 radiation effects for people even we 915 00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:41,599 were talking to uh kathleen martin about 916 00:37:45,109 --> 00:37:44,000 betty and barney hill and you know they 917 00:37:46,950 --> 00:37:45,119 were worried that there might be 918 00:37:49,430 --> 00:37:46,960 radiation coming from the craft onto 919 00:37:51,990 --> 00:37:49,440 their car betty of course died of an 920 00:37:53,750 --> 00:37:52,000 aggressive cancer she was also a very 921 00:37:55,990 --> 00:37:53,760 heavy smoker so that didn't help her 922 00:37:57,670 --> 00:37:56,000 case but she died of cancer 923 00:37:59,270 --> 00:37:57,680 um and 924 00:38:01,349 --> 00:37:59,280 i've always wondered that like you know 925 00:38:02,950 --> 00:38:01,359 the people having these experiences even 926 00:38:05,109 --> 00:38:02,960 middle of the night or whatever do they 927 00:38:07,510 --> 00:38:05,119 are they more at risk of cancer or other 928 00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:07,520 diseases so yeah it's weird and the blue 929 00:38:10,150 --> 00:38:09,040 orbs like you guys mentioned the blue 930 00:38:12,390 --> 00:38:10,160 nasties 931 00:38:15,109 --> 00:38:12,400 seems to be the uh the guilty culprits 932 00:38:16,790 --> 00:38:15,119 for a lot of these uh ailments right and 933 00:38:18,470 --> 00:38:16,800 you guys had a case study too did you 934 00:38:21,750 --> 00:38:18,480 not have a man in georgia he was 935 00:38:22,550 --> 00:38:21,760 irradiated by like a black triangle and 936 00:38:24,230 --> 00:38:22,560 you know 937 00:38:26,069 --> 00:38:24,240 all the various anomalies and even the 938 00:38:27,750 --> 00:38:26,079 psychological effects not only just the 939 00:38:29,349 --> 00:38:27,760 physical measurable 940 00:38:31,109 --> 00:38:29,359 most of these people will report some 941 00:38:32,710 --> 00:38:31,119 type of fizzle out like even the ones 942 00:38:34,710 --> 00:38:32,720 that didn't feel threatened from an 943 00:38:37,109 --> 00:38:34,720 abduction case or something similar it 944 00:38:38,870 --> 00:38:37,119 was still trauma none of them loved it 945 00:38:41,270 --> 00:38:38,880 and couldn't wait to get back that 946 00:38:42,790 --> 00:38:41,280 doesn't happen it's a trauma that's 947 00:38:44,630 --> 00:38:42,800 right i mean the case you're you're 948 00:38:47,589 --> 00:38:44,640 mentioning um 949 00:38:49,270 --> 00:38:47,599 was a classic case of um 950 00:38:52,069 --> 00:38:49,280 you know this guy was minding his own 951 00:38:53,829 --> 00:38:52,079 business in georgia he walked out he was 952 00:38:56,069 --> 00:38:53,839 checking on a son who was uh you know 953 00:38:58,550 --> 00:38:56,079 staying the night with friends in a tent 954 00:39:01,030 --> 00:38:58,560 and in the backyard but he he noticed 955 00:39:03,670 --> 00:39:01,040 his dog was barking he came out 956 00:39:05,349 --> 00:39:03,680 and uh he noticed this 957 00:39:08,310 --> 00:39:05,359 totally silent 958 00:39:09,829 --> 00:39:08,320 football field-sized uh triangle right 959 00:39:10,790 --> 00:39:09,839 over his property 960 00:39:13,109 --> 00:39:10,800 um 961 00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:13,119 and uh he tried to take some cell phone 962 00:39:18,230 --> 00:39:15,440 photos but his cell phone wasn't working 963 00:39:19,030 --> 00:39:18,240 so he went back inside and grabbed a 964 00:39:21,990 --> 00:39:19,040 pretty 965 00:39:24,150 --> 00:39:22,000 high intensity uh flashlight 966 00:39:25,750 --> 00:39:24,160 you know sort of million candle power 967 00:39:28,230 --> 00:39:25,760 flashlight came out 968 00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:28,240 and illuminated the underneath of the of 969 00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:31,359 the craft and immediately he did this 970 00:39:34,790 --> 00:39:32,640 this 971 00:39:36,230 --> 00:39:34,800 really intense blue 972 00:39:39,430 --> 00:39:36,240 uh ray 973 00:39:42,230 --> 00:39:39,440 was shot out from the craft hit him and 974 00:39:44,790 --> 00:39:42,240 sort of uh he turned to protect himself 975 00:39:47,430 --> 00:39:44,800 you know and it hit the back of his neck 976 00:39:49,829 --> 00:39:47,440 and uh it was heating him up so he he 977 00:39:52,710 --> 00:39:49,839 walked back indoors or ran back indoors 978 00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:52,720 to get away from it but you know 979 00:39:58,069 --> 00:39:55,520 within a few hours of this event 980 00:40:00,870 --> 00:39:58,079 he was he had a headache 981 00:40:02,790 --> 00:40:00,880 he had metallic taste in his mouth 982 00:40:05,030 --> 00:40:02,800 several days later he noticed that his 983 00:40:08,150 --> 00:40:05,040 hair was starting to fall out and so we 984 00:40:10,790 --> 00:40:08,160 deployed one of the md phd 985 00:40:13,750 --> 00:40:10,800 people our medical consultants 986 00:40:14,790 --> 00:40:13,760 um to spend time with him to take him to 987 00:40:18,390 --> 00:40:14,800 hospital 988 00:40:21,190 --> 00:40:18,400 blood samples um this guy went through a 989 00:40:22,390 --> 00:40:21,200 whole sort of series of classic 990 00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:22,400 um 991 00:40:27,670 --> 00:40:25,520 consequences of getting irradiated and 992 00:40:29,230 --> 00:40:27,680 you know one of the hypotheses we had 993 00:40:32,710 --> 00:40:29,240 was that this was 994 00:40:35,030 --> 00:40:32,720 non-ionizing radiation that was uh that 995 00:40:37,109 --> 00:40:35,040 was had happened on this guy because i 996 00:40:39,510 --> 00:40:37,119 mean he lost a lot of his 997 00:40:43,109 --> 00:40:39,520 a lot of the hair on the back of his 998 00:40:44,390 --> 00:40:43,119 head um he had the classic signs of 999 00:40:47,750 --> 00:40:44,400 sunburn 1000 00:40:50,550 --> 00:40:47,760 neck 1001 00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:50,560 he did have a whole bunch of tumors 1002 00:40:54,950 --> 00:40:53,200 erupting in his body luckily there were 1003 00:40:56,790 --> 00:40:54,960 benign tumors 1004 00:40:58,630 --> 00:40:56,800 it was sort of a diagnosis of 1005 00:41:01,990 --> 00:40:58,640 castleman's disease 1006 00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:02,000 but he went through a couple of years of 1007 00:41:07,670 --> 00:41:04,560 not only sort of psychological 1008 00:41:09,990 --> 00:41:07,680 trauma but also medical trauma um and 1009 00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:10,000 all of this stuff erupted right after 1010 00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:12,160 you know from this event of getting 1011 00:41:16,309 --> 00:41:13,680 irradiated 1012 00:41:18,829 --> 00:41:16,319 on his own property by this object in 1013 00:41:22,230 --> 00:41:18,839 the sky and you know you have to ask the 1014 00:41:24,550 --> 00:41:22,240 question you know if if a lot of 1015 00:41:26,710 --> 00:41:24,560 skeptics would say these are special 1016 00:41:29,670 --> 00:41:26,720 access programs run by the united states 1017 00:41:32,230 --> 00:41:29,680 military uh that these triangular craft 1018 00:41:34,470 --> 00:41:32,240 are up in the sky but you have to ask if 1019 00:41:37,670 --> 00:41:34,480 these are run by the united states 1020 00:41:40,390 --> 00:41:37,680 military why are they irradiating 1021 00:41:42,790 --> 00:41:40,400 um united states citizens who are 1022 00:41:46,309 --> 00:41:42,800 minding their own business on on their 1023 00:41:49,109 --> 00:41:46,319 own property um i mean that's that's 1024 00:41:52,309 --> 00:41:49,119 beyond the illegal and it's uh beyond 1025 00:41:54,950 --> 00:41:52,319 unethical um in terms of of that kind of 1026 00:41:57,670 --> 00:41:54,960 behavior obviously whoever's doing it it 1027 00:42:00,230 --> 00:41:57,680 is equally unethical but the idea that 1028 00:42:03,190 --> 00:42:00,240 the united states military would be 1029 00:42:06,230 --> 00:42:03,200 operating special access programs in 1030 00:42:08,710 --> 00:42:06,240 such a foolhardy way yeah you know 1031 00:42:11,270 --> 00:42:08,720 parking parking very large triangular 1032 00:42:13,670 --> 00:42:11,280 objects over neighborhoods 1033 00:42:16,309 --> 00:42:13,680 is a very very dangerous thing to do 1034 00:42:18,950 --> 00:42:16,319 with an experimental aircraft so it just 1035 00:42:21,030 --> 00:42:18,960 doesn't make sense to explain away 1036 00:42:23,589 --> 00:42:21,040 all of this stuff by saying these are 1037 00:42:25,430 --> 00:42:23,599 special access programs so the whole 1038 00:42:26,470 --> 00:42:25,440 radiation thing is really interesting 1039 00:42:28,470 --> 00:42:26,480 because 1040 00:42:31,030 --> 00:42:28,480 um not only 1041 00:42:32,470 --> 00:42:31,040 you know this guy was irradiated the the 1042 00:42:34,150 --> 00:42:32,480 person with the 1043 00:42:36,790 --> 00:42:34,160 uh that had blue orbs going through 1044 00:42:38,550 --> 00:42:36,800 their body came up with a rare form of 1045 00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:38,560 ductile carcinoma 1046 00:42:43,910 --> 00:42:41,119 um that that actually eventually was 1047 00:42:46,710 --> 00:42:43,920 resolved luckily uh it did not 1048 00:42:49,270 --> 00:42:46,720 metastasize but there were various 1049 00:42:50,309 --> 00:42:49,280 incidents like that of it acute medical 1050 00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:50,319 effects 1051 00:42:57,670 --> 00:42:53,280 but um also tied in with 1052 00:42:58,710 --> 00:42:57,680 hair loss metallic taste in the mouth 1053 00:43:01,750 --> 00:42:58,720 um 1054 00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:01,760 all of these classic signs that seem to 1055 00:43:07,430 --> 00:43:04,480 point in the direction of non-ionizing 1056 00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:07,440 radiation so yeah i mean we think that 1057 00:43:15,109 --> 00:43:10,240 that there was a subset of these cases 1058 00:43:19,990 --> 00:43:17,270 nice wow so where is the investigation 1059 00:43:21,670 --> 00:43:20,000 at now you know nids ran its course 1060 00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:21,680 asap which was originally supposed to be 1061 00:43:26,150 --> 00:43:23,359 a five-year program you know was going 1062 00:43:28,309 --> 00:43:26,160 to be a longer broad-scale study it was 1063 00:43:30,710 --> 00:43:28,319 cut short to what 20 months or something 1064 00:43:34,069 --> 00:43:30,720 like that call it two years uh and then 1065 00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:34,079 27 months yeah yeah and then a tip comes 1066 00:43:37,030 --> 00:43:34,960 out 1067 00:43:39,670 --> 00:43:37,040 you know in its time frame but even like 1068 00:43:41,910 --> 00:43:39,680 the tic tac video that happened years 1069 00:43:45,109 --> 00:43:41,920 and years before it was released so 1070 00:43:46,790 --> 00:43:45,119 where is the new sort of uh information 1071 00:43:48,309 --> 00:43:46,800 coming from and like what's actually 1072 00:43:49,589 --> 00:43:48,319 happening right now 1073 00:43:52,550 --> 00:43:49,599 well 1074 00:43:56,870 --> 00:43:52,560 as you know in in december of 2017 the 1075 00:43:59,510 --> 00:43:56,880 new york times uh broke the article on 1076 00:44:03,190 --> 00:43:59,520 on the on the tic tac case 1077 00:44:06,150 --> 00:44:03,200 as well as the uh this secret pentagon 1078 00:44:09,430 --> 00:44:06,160 ufo program which they got wrong in 1079 00:44:11,990 --> 00:44:09,440 terms of the naming um but you know that 1080 00:44:14,470 --> 00:44:12,000 initiated a whole sort of series of 1081 00:44:17,030 --> 00:44:14,480 events behind the scenes the department 1082 00:44:19,349 --> 00:44:17,040 of defense put together uh what they 1083 00:44:22,790 --> 00:44:19,359 call the uap task force 1084 00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:22,800 in uh 20 actually unofficially it was a 1085 00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:26,160 starting in about 20 uh 2018 1086 00:44:31,990 --> 00:44:29,760 but it became official in 2020 when it 1087 00:44:34,950 --> 00:44:32,000 was announced but a lot of the people 1088 00:44:36,390 --> 00:44:34,960 who had worked on the assaf program 1089 00:44:39,510 --> 00:44:36,400 and their and some of their 1090 00:44:42,309 --> 00:44:39,520 collaborators ended up working on the 1091 00:44:45,349 --> 00:44:42,319 uap task force so a lot of these people 1092 00:44:47,030 --> 00:44:45,359 knew a lot of what they were doing uh so 1093 00:44:49,670 --> 00:44:47,040 so on 1094 00:44:51,109 --> 00:44:49,680 june 25th of 1095 00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:51,119 um 1096 00:44:57,589 --> 00:44:55,280 the uh office of odni the 1097 00:45:00,230 --> 00:44:57,599 debate the main intelligence 1098 00:45:04,870 --> 00:45:00,240 uh umbrella announced that 1099 00:45:07,430 --> 00:45:04,880 uh you you of ufos or uaps were real but 1100 00:45:08,550 --> 00:45:07,440 that announcement basically sent shock 1101 00:45:10,790 --> 00:45:08,560 waves 1102 00:45:13,589 --> 00:45:10,800 through the western world because the 1103 00:45:16,390 --> 00:45:13,599 united states had always denied any 1104 00:45:20,150 --> 00:45:16,400 knowledge of ufos and had denied any 1105 00:45:21,670 --> 00:45:20,160 knowledge uh that uaps were even existed 1106 00:45:26,150 --> 00:45:21,680 but here they were making this 1107 00:45:28,950 --> 00:45:26,160 announcement uh on june 25th of 2021 1108 00:45:31,349 --> 00:45:28,960 subsequent to that there's been a lot of 1109 00:45:33,430 --> 00:45:31,359 briefings uh you know the senate 1110 00:45:36,790 --> 00:45:33,440 intelligence committee senate armed 1111 00:45:37,910 --> 00:45:36,800 services committee um in congress where 1112 00:45:40,230 --> 00:45:37,920 a lot of 1113 00:45:42,630 --> 00:45:40,240 uh senate people are 1114 00:45:43,430 --> 00:45:42,640 getting very very interested in the fact 1115 00:45:45,349 --> 00:45:43,440 that 1116 00:45:47,190 --> 00:45:45,359 hundreds of these 1117 00:45:50,309 --> 00:45:47,200 unidentified objects have been 1118 00:45:53,270 --> 00:45:50,319 documented in the last few years in 1119 00:45:53,990 --> 00:45:53,280 association with carrier strike groups 1120 00:45:55,430 --> 00:45:54,000 and 1121 00:45:57,349 --> 00:45:55,440 other other 1122 00:45:59,349 --> 00:45:57,359 united states military assets both on 1123 00:46:01,349 --> 00:45:59,359 the east and the west coast so 1124 00:46:02,870 --> 00:46:01,359 bottom line for this whole thing is that 1125 00:46:06,870 --> 00:46:02,880 there is a new 1126 00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:06,880 quote-unquote official uap organization 1127 00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:10,640 that is um it's housed at the 1128 00:46:14,790 --> 00:46:12,960 usdi which is the under secretary of 1129 00:46:16,790 --> 00:46:14,800 defense for intelligence 1130 00:46:18,230 --> 00:46:16,800 and they're tasked with basically 1131 00:46:21,109 --> 00:46:18,240 reporting out 1132 00:46:22,870 --> 00:46:21,119 uh with classified briefings to senate 1133 00:46:24,710 --> 00:46:22,880 armed services committee and senate 1134 00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:24,720 intelligence committee and i think 1135 00:46:30,550 --> 00:46:27,680 they're also tasked with releasing 1136 00:46:33,109 --> 00:46:30,560 an annual ufo report 1137 00:46:35,270 --> 00:46:33,119 a status of the situation but you know 1138 00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:35,280 to be honest 1139 00:46:39,109 --> 00:46:37,440 i don't think this organization 1140 00:46:40,230 --> 00:46:39,119 is capable 1141 00:46:43,510 --> 00:46:40,240 of 1142 00:46:47,109 --> 00:46:43,520 in-depth 1143 00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:47,119 investigative investigation apparatus 1144 00:46:52,630 --> 00:46:49,920 that osap actually put together in a 1145 00:46:53,990 --> 00:46:52,640 matter of six months this organization 1146 00:46:56,390 --> 00:46:54,000 usdi 1147 00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:56,400 is not it's more like an oversight 1148 00:47:01,030 --> 00:46:59,040 organization it does not have boots on 1149 00:47:03,589 --> 00:47:01,040 the ground probably never will have 1150 00:47:05,349 --> 00:47:03,599 boots on the ground so i think the best 1151 00:47:06,950 --> 00:47:05,359 that we can hope for 1152 00:47:11,109 --> 00:47:06,960 is some sort of 1153 00:47:13,910 --> 00:47:11,119 um low-level series of reporting out on 1154 00:47:16,710 --> 00:47:13,920 the ufo phenomenon some low-level 1155 00:47:18,470 --> 00:47:16,720 classified briefings to the senate 1156 00:47:21,270 --> 00:47:18,480 senate intelligence committee and senate 1157 00:47:23,829 --> 00:47:21,280 armed service committee but in terms of 1158 00:47:27,109 --> 00:47:23,839 the the kinds of 1159 00:47:29,109 --> 00:47:27,119 really intensive investigation 1160 00:47:31,349 --> 00:47:29,119 that's the kind of thing that asap 1161 00:47:33,349 --> 00:47:31,359 really put into place 1162 00:47:35,349 --> 00:47:33,359 and skin workers at the pentagon that 1163 00:47:37,750 --> 00:47:35,359 book that we published 1164 00:47:40,470 --> 00:47:37,760 appendix 2 of that book 1165 00:47:43,270 --> 00:47:40,480 lays out line by line a complete sort of 1166 00:47:45,910 --> 00:47:43,280 menu of the kind of organization you 1167 00:47:48,470 --> 00:47:45,920 would need to put together in order to 1168 00:47:50,150 --> 00:47:48,480 adequately investigate this ufo 1169 00:47:53,670 --> 00:47:50,160 phenomenon now 1170 00:47:58,150 --> 00:47:53,680 i'll be honest i don't think the um the 1171 00:48:01,349 --> 00:47:58,160 implementation of this plan at the usdi 1172 00:48:04,150 --> 00:48:01,359 is going to go anywhere close to 1173 00:48:06,870 --> 00:48:04,160 the level uh and then the intensity of 1174 00:48:09,190 --> 00:48:06,880 the investigation that's needed at best 1175 00:48:11,510 --> 00:48:09,200 it's going to be sort of uh another 1176 00:48:14,309 --> 00:48:11,520 project blue book that might sort of 1177 00:48:16,150 --> 00:48:14,319 report occasionally on cases but it's 1178 00:48:20,790 --> 00:48:16,160 not going to do the kind of 1179 00:48:23,510 --> 00:48:20,800 um 50 full-time people that are are only 1180 00:48:26,150 --> 00:48:23,520 organized in order to investigate these 1181 00:48:29,030 --> 00:48:26,160 cases day after day week after week i 1182 00:48:30,950 --> 00:48:29,040 mean that's what you need in order to 1183 00:48:33,510 --> 00:48:30,960 make some headway on this phenomenon 1184 00:48:34,710 --> 00:48:33,520 because this phenomenon is very very 1185 00:48:36,470 --> 00:48:34,720 complex 1186 00:48:39,109 --> 00:48:36,480 it's not the kind of thing that you can 1187 00:48:42,549 --> 00:48:39,119 say okay we'll deploy a couple of dozen 1188 00:48:44,230 --> 00:48:42,559 sensors here we'll get some sensor data 1189 00:48:46,630 --> 00:48:44,240 and then we'll explain this whole thing 1190 00:48:48,549 --> 00:48:46,640 away that's not the way this works 1191 00:48:49,990 --> 00:48:48,559 and it's worldwide like you mentioned 1192 00:48:51,430 --> 00:48:50,000 it's everywhere there's a bunch of 1193 00:48:52,470 --> 00:48:51,440 different pockets there's a bunch of 1194 00:48:54,790 --> 00:48:52,480 different 1195 00:48:57,349 --> 00:48:54,800 like even here in uh british columbia 1196 00:48:59,430 --> 00:48:57,359 it's a hot zone for uap 1197 00:49:01,510 --> 00:48:59,440 activity so 1198 00:49:03,349 --> 00:49:01,520 yeah that's right it's it's 1199 00:49:05,270 --> 00:49:03,359 it's a global problem and i always think 1200 00:49:06,390 --> 00:49:05,280 that that should be something that 1201 00:49:08,390 --> 00:49:06,400 i don't know 1202 00:49:10,069 --> 00:49:08,400 not saying nato but some bigger 1203 00:49:11,910 --> 00:49:10,079 organization can actually form maybe 1204 00:49:13,670 --> 00:49:11,920 some sort of team as opposed to just 1205 00:49:15,430 --> 00:49:13,680 having countries forming their own 1206 00:49:17,910 --> 00:49:15,440 little teams here and there not 1207 00:49:20,069 --> 00:49:17,920 communicating and of course that slows 1208 00:49:22,230 --> 00:49:20,079 down the whole process so 1209 00:49:25,190 --> 00:49:22,240 yeah and you know one of the things that 1210 00:49:28,630 --> 00:49:25,200 asap did was we did try to go 1211 00:49:31,990 --> 00:49:28,640 um international we we deployed teams 1212 00:49:33,829 --> 00:49:32,000 of investigators to brazil to look into 1213 00:49:34,870 --> 00:49:33,839 some of the activity in northeastern 1214 00:49:37,030 --> 00:49:34,880 brazil 1215 00:49:38,630 --> 00:49:37,040 in fortaleza we interviewed people 1216 00:49:40,870 --> 00:49:38,640 associated with 1217 00:49:43,270 --> 00:49:40,880 the famous kolaris 1218 00:49:45,829 --> 00:49:43,280 incidents back in the late 70s but we 1219 00:49:48,549 --> 00:49:45,839 also deployed a team to 1220 00:49:51,670 --> 00:49:48,559 brasilia the capital of brazil and we 1221 00:49:53,430 --> 00:49:51,680 interviewed high-level people with uh 1222 00:49:55,430 --> 00:49:53,440 with the the department that the 1223 00:49:58,230 --> 00:49:55,440 government of brazil and we were 1224 00:50:00,230 --> 00:49:58,240 actually instrumental in putting out in 1225 00:50:04,150 --> 00:50:00,240 the brazilian government issuing a 1226 00:50:07,430 --> 00:50:04,160 series of documents pertaining to 1227 00:50:09,670 --> 00:50:07,440 uh the release of information on ufos so 1228 00:50:11,190 --> 00:50:09,680 um that that part of the program was 1229 00:50:14,309 --> 00:50:11,200 very productive 1230 00:50:17,190 --> 00:50:14,319 we had some uh we had some overlap with 1231 00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:17,200 some of the uh ufo cases in the united 1232 00:50:22,710 --> 00:50:20,400 kingdom but you know if the asap program 1233 00:50:25,670 --> 00:50:22,720 had been allowed to continue 1234 00:50:27,589 --> 00:50:25,680 for you know another two or three years 1235 00:50:28,950 --> 00:50:27,599 we were really only getting started we 1236 00:50:32,069 --> 00:50:28,960 were getting to be 1237 00:50:34,150 --> 00:50:32,079 the status of a well-oiled machine but 1238 00:50:36,950 --> 00:50:34,160 if we had been allowed to continue for 1239 00:50:39,829 --> 00:50:36,960 about five years we probably would have 1240 00:50:42,710 --> 00:50:39,839 done a pretty good job in reaching out 1241 00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:42,720 with uh you know international liaisons 1242 00:50:46,230 --> 00:50:44,400 uh because the defense intelligence 1243 00:50:50,230 --> 00:50:46,240 agency has a network 1244 00:50:52,549 --> 00:50:50,240 of you know uh liaisons within a lot of 1245 00:50:55,589 --> 00:50:52,559 countries around the world and so we 1246 00:50:57,829 --> 00:50:55,599 were about to activate that network when 1247 00:51:01,349 --> 00:50:57,839 the um you know when the program was 1248 00:51:03,829 --> 00:51:01,359 shut down mostly for political reasons 1249 00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:03,839 uh but also because there were elements 1250 00:51:07,030 --> 00:51:06,240 within the pentagon that were getting 1251 00:51:08,470 --> 00:51:07,040 very 1252 00:51:10,549 --> 00:51:08,480 uncomfortable 1253 00:51:12,870 --> 00:51:10,559 with the fact that there was a lot of 1254 00:51:16,069 --> 00:51:12,880 productivity happening there was a lot 1255 00:51:18,710 --> 00:51:16,079 of discussion about what this program 1256 00:51:21,270 --> 00:51:18,720 was doing in the pentagon so people were 1257 00:51:25,109 --> 00:51:21,280 getting uncomfortable that the profile 1258 00:51:29,030 --> 00:51:27,270 well i've i can speak for myself as well 1259 00:51:30,950 --> 00:51:29,040 as jason we really enjoyed reading 1260 00:51:32,549 --> 00:51:30,960 skinwalkers at the pentagon it's the 1261 00:51:34,790 --> 00:51:32,559 kind of book you've got to read more 1262 00:51:36,470 --> 00:51:34,800 than once there's so much information 1263 00:51:38,309 --> 00:51:36,480 even if you're really well versed on the 1264 00:51:40,470 --> 00:51:38,319 subject the amount of acronyms and 1265 00:51:42,549 --> 00:51:40,480 everything else it takes a bit of 1266 00:51:45,349 --> 00:51:42,559 understanding and even for myself i sort 1267 00:51:47,910 --> 00:51:45,359 of plotted the chronology of nids to 1268 00:51:49,670 --> 00:51:47,920 ossap to atip and it really puts 1269 00:51:51,589 --> 00:51:49,680 everything into perspective because 1270 00:51:53,829 --> 00:51:51,599 robert bigelow's doing his thing with 1271 00:51:55,270 --> 00:51:53,839 nids and then skinwalker ranch at the 1272 00:51:56,790 --> 00:51:55,280 same time the government program's 1273 00:51:59,750 --> 00:51:56,800 running and he gets the contract for 1274 00:52:03,030 --> 00:51:59,760 that so it all makes sense if you absorb 1275 00:52:04,950 --> 00:52:03,040 it slowly and on multiple occasions so 1276 00:52:07,030 --> 00:52:04,960 um yeah do you have anything else you 1277 00:52:10,069 --> 00:52:07,040 want to ask jason no like i said this 1278 00:52:12,069 --> 00:52:10,079 this book i will also it absolutely 1279 00:52:14,630 --> 00:52:12,079 praise it because i've like i said i 1280 00:52:16,950 --> 00:52:14,640 highlighted you know a lot of the pages 1281 00:52:19,190 --> 00:52:16,960 and tabbed everything so it is a 1282 00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:19,200 fantastic book and i do also recommend 1283 00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:20,720 it for the 1284 00:52:25,829 --> 00:52:24,160 uap uh studios out there let's just call 1285 00:52:28,230 --> 00:52:25,839 them that for the listeners for the time 1286 00:52:30,470 --> 00:52:28,240 being yeah colm thank you so much for 1287 00:52:31,990 --> 00:52:30,480 coming on to the podcast today it's been 1288 00:52:33,670 --> 00:52:32,000 a pleasure and hopefully it's not the 1289 00:52:35,910 --> 00:52:33,680 last time that we have you on hopefully 1290 00:52:37,750 --> 00:52:35,920 you'll come on again this platform is 1291 00:52:40,309 --> 00:52:37,760 always open to you 1292 00:52:43,670 --> 00:52:40,319 okay well thank you i really enjoyed it 1293 00:52:45,349 --> 00:52:43,680 and uh for sure yeah i can 1294 00:52:48,150 --> 00:52:45,359 always come back at some time in the 1295 00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:48,160 future perfect sir have a great day